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@Niquarl both & are -abusing sites. And worse, CF is a centralized abuser which undermines the decentralization hopes to achieve. I would not donate until they move off @Liberapay & Patreon.

How about just not donating *using* Liberapay? Lemmy can't control what other services payment platforms use, and it would be self-defeating for them not to use any platform people might want to donate through, because they already use it.

Settings ethical standards that are impossible to fully meet has the same effect as setting no standards at all.

@Niquarl @Liberapay

@strypey @Liberapay @Niquarl it's self-defeating for a decentralization project to feed the biggest adversary of decentralization. Are you saying every single payment processor uses ? At a bare minimum, they can post a bitcoin address and an IBAN#. If they must outsource a service for this, at least avoids supporting CF. It's on AWS but it's a lesser of evils of the status quo.

@Niquarl @Liberapay @strypey there are lots of options on I'd be surprised if there weren't something that's even more ethical than

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I don't know if @LemmyDev has a bitcoin but i'm pretty sure that if you wanted to donate a decent amount then they would consider whatever payment method you want. In the meantime, there are ways of supporting them on opensource software like liberapay....

@icedquinn Switching from Cloudflare to a technically similar alternative wouldn't really solve the problem, because there would still be a middleman capable of collecting private data.

@Liberapay I'm not sure if their problem is the security layer so much as Cloudflare specifically being shitbags. They publicly drop people for political reasons and that is warm and bad. They also tend to drop clients the moment their site actually needs any real protection measures.

I couldn't care less what you use, i just know Sucuri specifically has stood up for free speech in the past. Cloudflare typically does not.

@icedquinn @Liberapay

& Sucuri would share the MitM problem but not abuses to , hostility, support for snooping, of over 10% of the web, lying in their blog (telling users trust is not needed for CF service), blocking US voters from registering (), dictating web browsers to users (attacking text-based browsers) & yes- being shitbags.

@icedquinn Cloudflare no longer drops any client who's under attack, since they have enough capacity to mitigate even the largest attacks. I doubt Sucuri can say the same.

Cloudflare's decisions to stop serving two highly controversial websites were questionable but understandable, they don't justify boycotting Cloudflare.

@Liberapay Well I'm glad they finally understood basic concepts like providing the service they were paid for.
@Liberapay @icedquinn what are LP's needs specifically with cloudflare? i know what services CF provides, but i know some people use it for dns, others for cdn, still others for ddos mitigation, and then there are people who use multiple or all of their services. i have a long term goal to identify and create alternative services to meet the needs people have, to offset cloudflare


i have a long term goal to identify and create alternative services to meet the needs people have, to offset cloudflare

For something like 6 months now, a friend of mine and I have been planning to create an alternative to their authoritative DNS service. We have the backend pretty much laid out in addition to multiple people willing to run multiple slaves each but we're stuck on the damn name >.>

@icedquinn @Liberapay

@wowaname time to visit the mythology section of your library to find obscure names. :blobcatfingerguns:

@icedquinn Lol we've tried different languages, obscure animals, ethnic instruments, and a lot more but there either isn't a good domain name, the one we want is already registered, or it's hard to connect to DNS. At one point, we had something like 100 names and ended up crossing them all off 😅


Do you know of a site that uses Sucuri apart from themselves? I'd like to check them out.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I know Jihad Watch does (they told everyone.) Otherwise, no. People who aren't using Cloudflare don't typically advertise who they are using.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Liberapay Would Opencollective be okay for you? I think they have one too

@Niquarl @Liberapay is a site, thus works against and . ATM I see no ethical problem with &

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo Please stop spamming us and our users with unsubstantiated accusations against Cloudflare. It's annoying and you're not convincing anyone.


@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo Your first link confirms that your claims aren't substantiated: “This is not, of course, evidence or proof.”

Your other links aren't any better. Two of them are from 2016 and are at least partially obsolete.


@Liberapay @Niquarl I never made the claim that the US gov. has 's view of the data, so I have no need to substantiate the US role. My claim that CF centralizes the web is well-substantiated in those articles. What does CF do differently after 2016 that you believe supports decentralization & ?

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo You claimed that CF violates privacy, but you haven't provided any evidence that they're collecting and sharing private data.

Net neutrality isn't very relevant since CF isn't a consumer ISP. You haven't explained how CF “works against” net neutrality.

Complaining that CF “centralizes” the web is basically the same as complaining that they're doing their job too well and have too many customers.


@Liberapay @Niquarl CloudFlare attacks users. Attacks on Tor users are an attack on . This constrains the Tor userbase. CloudFlare is also a MitM who charges no fee to a vast majority of its users-- this is how surveillance capitalism works. Millions of accounts were compromised in , an artifact of lg.scale centralisation coupled w/a MitM.

@Niquarl @Liberapay also pushes reCAPTCHA, from which further privacy abuse arises. From CF's mistreatment of users there is access inequality, attacking the single most important principle of .

@Liberapay @Niquarl It makes no difference to me if CF "does their job well" as they've defined it. It matters what they do. And obviously collateral damage to legit users is no part of any measure that stands behind a claim that CF "does their job well".

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo You seem to have completely missed the point of what I was saying. Any hosting provider with a significant market share “centralizes” the web. Accusing a company of centralizing the web is accusing it of being too good at attracting and retaining clients. What are they supposed to do? Sabotage themselves?

@Liberapay That's not my problem. If they can't figure out how to secure the web in a decentralized manner, then they can't figure out how to be compatible with the free world. At a minimum they could have designed their system so different 3rd parties are in control of the data centers that compose their network.

What *is* my job, as an activist, is to identify & fight problems like CloudFlare. You seem to imply that corps should get sympathy points for something.

@Liberapay If the shop that sells top hats and pocket watches goes out of business b/c ppl realize they no longer want them, the business has no inherent right in existing and carrying forward.

If the ppl evolve to realize they collectively don't want centralization, CF must adapt or die.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo CF has in fact announced just yesterday that some of their customers can now control which data centers are used to process requests:

It seems to me that your “job” is just wasting people's time. You're not accomplishing anything other than that.

@Liberapay CF still has oversight of those data centers. I'm not sure how you can claim this is "decentralization". You're conflating "distributed" with "decentralized".

On the point of reCAPTCHA, that's no longer the case. CF recently switched to hCaptcha because Google was going to charge them a massive amount as CF's userbase is so large.

I do agree that CF is a huge problem and absolutely no one should be using their services though. Just wanted to point that one thing out 😉

@amolith @Liberapay i saw the announcement but didn't realise it took effect. I've experienced serious functionality problems with hCAPTCHA (on I'm not sure on the direct privacy implications of hCAPTCHA but in my case it served as an outright block, in which case I was either forced off Tor or forced off the site.

@Liberapay @amolith I just now tried to tick the "I am human" box on a site after enabling a bunch of j/s, and couldn't even get the puzzle. It says "rate limited or network error. please retry"

I haven't visited a site behind CloudFlare while using Tor yet but I always have to complete a captcha when I'm behind my personal VPN (which is 99% of the time) and I actually find hCaptcha easier to get by than reCAPTCHA. Still doesn't excuse the use of a MITM though

@amolith @Liberapay I tried again, and it said click on every image that contains a motorcycle. One box showed just the instrument panel of what's likely a motorcycle - should that be clicked? Another image shows a fancy scooter that has a faring that looks similar to a motorcycle. Does that count? As I was deciding, got tired of waiting for me and killed the window.

@Liberapay @amolith next try w/ : "click on images with a train". Some of these images show a subway, which can pass for a train but generally only get called a "train" when above ground.

I've been going in circles on the GitLab sign in page for the last 10 minutes because they're uNdEr AtTaCk lol

It's just ridiculous. If I'm ever in the situation where I have to choose between putting my services behind an untrustworthy third party or shutting down, adios :ablobcatwave:

@amolith @Liberapay .com also switched from reCAPTCHA to hCAPTCHA, and it was a disaster. They quickly reverted to reCAPTCHA. Now they're back on hCAPTCHA.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Niquarl @Liberapay I thought they were switching away from google's reCaptcha? Are they still using it?

You're right, it's hCAPTCHA now (Amolith pointed that out). So Google surveillance is out of the picture, but 2 new problems emerge: the hCAPTCHA discriminates more harshly against disabled ppl (no audible test), and hCAPTCHA uses (another evil) to pay CF for the user's labor. So the labor of solving the puzzle directly finances the adversary of the laborer.

@Niquarl @Liberapay

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo Also hcaptcha breaks even more easily than google's captcha. I think it needs 3rd party cookies enabled by default maybe? not tracked it down yet, but I can't ever make them work. The solution? Register as a disabled user (and we swear we don't track that at all honest). @jeffcliff @Niquarl @Liberapay

Like with Google, the j/s is cascading. So you enable one 3rd party host, and that one calls another that must be enabled. So you have to change j/s perms and reload the page 4 times. After the 3rd time, it gives a bogus network congestion error, which ppl will believe b/c of all the reloading they did to get there. So some ppl will walk at that point.

@Niquarl @Liberapay @jeffcliff

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo Maybe, but trust me, I'm quite adept at rolling back js permissions, refreshing without cache and all the other tricks to get the modern internet to work, but hcaptcha has never worked for me. I've just never visited a site with hcaptcha / cloudfare protection. @Niquarl @Liberapay @jeffcliff

The option for disabled ppl to reg. to get different puzzles isn't even presented on the captcha page, so most disabled ppl won't even know that's an option. And indeed it's a lousy option; still discriminates against disabled ppl b/c they have to give up privacy to register.

@Niquarl @Liberapay @jeffcliff

Thank you so much for helping to expose Google Captcha and the Cloudflare Great Wall of China abuse systems!

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Niquarl @Liberapay

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo CF doesn't attack Tor users. In fact they've repeatedly tried to improve their service for Tor users: and

CF also allows website admins to choose whether requests coming through Tor should be challenged or not.

You haven't provided any evidence that CF is involved in surveillance. The fact that a company provides some services for free doesn't prove anything other than this: they're trying to attract new users.

@Liberapay "CF also allows website admins.." It's 's default setting that has put them in a position of abusing & . If they had a different default setting they would legitimately be able to point the finger to web admins (most of whome have little clue about how CF works or what Tor is)

@Liberapay Also, your positive claim that CF is not looking at the traffic, not using that data, and not allowing the US to snoop is simply naive. Without proof either way, it's ignorant to extend trust to a corporate tech giant particularly when they lie regularly, like Trump. To be a money service that's so cavalier with trust shows how absolutely reckless your operation is.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I'm not aware of CF having ever lied or done anything else that would justify distrusting them as much as you do.

Your repeated claim that it's particularly dangerous to use CF for financial services doesn't make much sense. They're obviously not going to steal money from people, so I don't know what you're worried about.

If using CF is “reckless”, then every significant platform similar to ours is reckless, including Patreon and Open Collective.

@Liberapay I think I've only ever encountered one bank foolish enough to use .

, , & all expect donors to set aside ethics and make a charitable donation, one that gives their financial data to web's most notorious & abuser. Of course it's reckless.

@Liberapay Many projects using , , & have privacy, decentralization, or netneutrality as their projects mission goal. It's a total hypocrisy that they direct their donors to patronize an adversary of the cause people are donating to support.

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